I don’t spend a lot of time on YouTube so I am coming to this discussion a little late. I had the chance to see this video in Church this past Sunday where it was shown before the sermon. I really like what Jefferson Bethke has to say. The full text of the poem can be found here so that you can read it for yourself.
If you look at the ministry of the prophets in the Old Testament, one of their functions was to challenge the Israelites to reexamine their lives in light of Scripture. One of the problems that the prophets addressed was that the religious observance in Israel often did not translate into changed lives. The rituals did not bring righteousness. Perhaps this is the best way of taking Jeremiah Bethke’s video, as a call to reexamine our lives in light of Scripture.
There is much in the church today that should be challenged and examined. We certainly cannot operate as if the Church is what it could be or should be. I know this because I am part of the church and I am neither what I could be or should be with regard to my walk with Jesus.
I am haunted by the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew 7:21-23 where he tells us that many who claim relationship with Jesus will be turned away from Heaven. Those turned away by Jesus point to their works as proof of their status. This is a reminder that religion doesn’t save anyone, Jesus does. So I get where Mr. Bethke is coming from in much of his poem. We are challenged to be in the relationship with Jesus first and foremost.
I also appreciate Kevin DeYoung’s Reaction to the video and the follow-up post including a response from Mr. Bethke. Kevin searches for balance and goes point by point through the poem pointing out some parts that potentially cause confusion.
DeYoung’s point is well taken that God’s program is with the Church, imperfect as she is. We cannot pursue a relationship with Christ apart from the Church. The Church is an institution founded by Christ and when she is functioning as she ought, the Church is also in submission to Christ. So while parts of the visible church are failing in their mission, we cannot escape our responsibility to allow God to transform us and our Church into what he wants us to be.
Mr. Bethke’s poem should be taken as food for thought. We should examine what Scripture says about the issues he presents and how our churches should respond. We should examine Scripture and consider how we should respond individually to the issues the poem presents. We should seek God to change us individually and transform our Church into an institution that is above reproach, that takes Scripture seriously, that lives out the Gospel and reaches out to a world that desperately needs good news.
Thank you Jefferson Bethke and Kevin DeYoung for a healthy dialog.
What is your reaction to the video and Kevin DeYoung’s response?
@mhmcintyre says
February 17, 2014 at 4:15 PMFrom the archives: Why I Hate Religion – Reaction to a Reaction http://t.co/cHZEmom3rQ
#ChristianityandCulture
SolomonsPorchRadio says
March 6, 2013 at 9:53 PMMark, we were touched by this video so much when it came out, that we did a podcast on it. http://wp.me/p26620-1Q The zeal and passion that Jeff has, is the same as what we want to have for Christ. It wasn’t until reading Kevin response, that we agree that we can have a balance with zeal/passion and order/religion. I guess you could say that cults could arise without some sort of order/religion. We are glad to see other guys bringing this topic for discussion. It keeps us alert and ready to do the Lord’s work.
Mike Gantt says
January 26, 2012 at 5:20 AMThe church is largely in rebellion to God because it does not give way to the kingdom of God. The church’s leaders do not teach the kingdom of God because they do not know it themselves, and because it would mean that people would follow Jesus instead of the church leaders.
Until and unless we return to the Lord, our first love, we will not see the kingdom of God and we will continue to blindly engage in ritual instead of doing the will of God with our lives. Jeff Bethke’s call was indeed in the spirit of Jeremiah but Kevin and others caused him to pull his punch (a Rehoboam error – the youth is misdirected by his elders). The poem had punch but the aftermath of discussion between Kevin and Jeff has drained it of its vitality.
Isaiah 45:22
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 7:06 AMI don’t fully understand the kingdom of God comment. I would agree that too much of the visible church has followed the Church in Ephesus and left it’s first love.
Perhaps we could look at what Kevin DeYoung did not as causing Jeff to pull his punch but to refine it.
Mike Gantt says
January 26, 2012 at 8:39 AMThe kingdom of God is not the church. The kingdom of God was what the New Testament church was preparing for. That kingdom is now in our midst and we should be seeking it – not church.
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 9:00 AMThanks for the clarification. I can agree with you as far as saying that the real Church is a subset of the visible church organization. Jesus told us that we would have wheat and tares mixed together in the church. We should be focused on Jesus Christ to be obedient to him. The focus should be on our relationship with God rather than on human organization.
Yet, Jesus inaugurated the Church, the gathering of the elect. So I do not see the Church as irrelevant, just flawed.
Mike Gantt says
January 26, 2012 at 9:16 AMSo, when you gather, do you gather to the real church or the visible church?
Mark McIntyre says
January 27, 2012 at 9:33 AMI gather to both the visible and the real church. I am under no delusion that everyone who attends church on Sunday is a believer. Among those in that gathering are believers who make up the real Church.
Mike Gantt says
January 27, 2012 at 10:40 AMSince the real church is invisible, how do you know that it is present where you gather and not down the street at some other church, or maybe nowhere in your town? And if you believe the real church is present in multiple places, how do you obey Hebrews 10:25 which says we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves “together”? That is, how do you account for assembling separately when the Scripture says to assemble together?
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 9:03 AMThanks for the clarification. I can agree with you as far as saying that the real Church is a subset of the visible church organization. Jesus told us that we would have wheat and tares mixed together in the church. We should be focused on Jesus Christ to be obedient to him. The focus should be on our relationship with God rather than on human organization.
Yet, Jesus inaugurated the Church, the gathering of the elect. So I do not see the Church as irrelevant. We should focus on making ourselves individually and the Church collectively obedient to Jesus Christ.
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 7:09 AMI don’t fully understand the kingdom of God comment. I would agree that too much of the visible church has followed the Church in Ephesus and left it’s first love.
Perhaps we could look at what Kevin DeYoung did not as causing Jeff to pull his punch but to refine it.
John says
January 26, 2012 at 3:06 AMI was very touched by Jeff’s humble reaction to Kevin’s post. I was very dismayed by the horrible hate-filled hubris-filled reactions so many people posted as comments on Kevin’s post, however.
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 6:57 AMIan, I am also dismayed by the lack of love displayed. Discussion is helpful even when there is disagreement, but it must be done in love. The good news is that Jeff and Kevin both love God and are seeking to serve him.
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 6:58 AMIan, I am also dismayed by the lack of love displayed. Discussion is helpful even when there is disagreement, but it must be done in love. The good news is that Jeff and Kevin both love God and are seeking to serve him.
Kksine says
January 24, 2012 at 8:52 AMGreat post Mark. I agree with your thoughts here that Bethke’s poem is great food for thought. I am also thankful for Kevin DeYoung to graciously point where it is theologically off. More impressive is Bethke’s response to DeYoung’s post how he is so teachable and humble and is willing to reexamine his poem in the light of scripture.
Mark McIntyre says
January 26, 2012 at 7:12 AMI agree about Jeff’s response. Thanks for the kind words